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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> General Forum --> Q&A Threads --> M&M3 New Camelot: Noir Camelot Q/A
Parent thread: M&M: New Camelot Knights
Related thread: Noir Camelot - Issue 1, Series 1 - The Disappearance of Prof. Stern
    Messages in M&M3 New Camelot: Noir Camelot Q/A
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Ayrn
RDI Fixture
Karma: 122/12
2025 Posts


Also...

After reviewing our characters, we could probably take out the Infirmary, Library, and Workshop from the headquarters seeing as none of us have investigation, treatment or technology skills.

Meaning, we could possibly gain another power point if we keep the total cost at 20 equipment points or less.


Posted on 2014-08-27 at 10:34:49.

Eol Fefalas
Lord of the Possums
RDI Staff
Karma: 470/28
8758 Posts


For my part...

...I don't really see Samael actually needing an alternative headquarters. I kind of imagine that if he's allowed to "roost" in the belltower or some such (anywhere he can sort of hide and watch the city/sky at the same time) he'll be a happy camper... especially if he's getting fed semi-regularly.

Also... don't imagine Sam being much for riding in a car, either (would his wings alow him to get in, even if they were folded... even if he could, would there be room for others in there... Nobody's friggin' huge, after all) but, I'm not opposed to tweaking the Wreker's ride if that's the way everyone else wants to go... call it "rent" on the bell tower.


Posted on 2014-08-27 at 13:18:18.

Alacrity
The Tired
RDI Staff
Karma: 291/33
6348 Posts


I had

I had a place to stay set up as the basement of the ACME labs that no one knew about. Now I did that because I thought we'd be starting as independent operators but I guess it could serve as an alternate.


Posted on 2014-08-28 at 00:41:35.

Ayrn
RDI Fixture
Karma: 122/12
2025 Posts


Some thoughts about M&M 3e character building

Sorry, guys... I hope you don’t hate me for reviewing your characters with fine tooth combs, and making all sorts of suggestions. I re-read my last post about the critique of Father O’Brian, and it seemed to me to come across a lot harsher than I intended. Hammer, if you found it offensive, I totally understand... and I’m sorry.

It’s definitely not my intent to change up what you are hoping to accomplish with your characters, nor change anything if you like the way your character looks. My main concern is more that when it comes to actual game play, you might find that some of the things you chose for your character won’t actually work as you hope, or you won’t actually use the advantage or power, which means you could have spent those power points strengthening your strengths (if that makes sense).

So, here’s a few lessons I’ve learned from playing M&M:

1) M&M is all about customization, or “Not all Abilities are created equal”. When you spend power points on Abilities, what you are actually doing is buying a ranks in a bunch of other things (advantages, skills and defenses) bundled together. Sometimes, this is a simple and effective way of purchasing these things. Sometimes, though, it's actually "cheaper" to just buy ranks in those things (advantages, skills and defenses) that you really want.

This is especially true for Presence. Spending 2 power points on Presence gives you Deception 1 (cost 0.5 pp), Intimidate 1 (cost 0.5 pp), and Persuasion 1 (cost 0.5 pp). So, with Presence, it's actually "cheaper" to just leave the ability at Rank 0 and purchase skill ranks in the skills you want. Example: You have 6 pp to spend. You could buy Presence 3 (giving the 3 skills each a +3 bonus) or you could just buy 12 ranks of skills (giving each skill a +4 bonus). This becomes even more important if you just wanted to focus on one or two of the three skills. Example: you just want your character to be awesome at intimidating people... 6 power points in skills buys 12 ranks of Intimidate, which is much better than Presence 3.

This is true about all the abilities, though some more than others:

Strength: One point of strength buys you Close Damage 1 (cost 1 pp), Lifting 1 (cost 1 pp), and Athletics 1 (cost 1 pp), which is a great deal if you want all of those things.
But, let’s say you wanted to build a martial arts character who can center their Chi for a good Damage effect (say Rank 6), who’s amazing in Athletics (Rank 15), but can’t lift more than 400 lbs (Rank 3) on an average day.... a more customized use of your power points would be to buy Strength 3, Strike 3, and Athletics 12 for a cost of 15 power points rather than buying straight Strength to level 15 (cost 30 pp).

Stamina: One rank in Stamina buys you Toughness 1 (cost 1 pp) and Fortitude 1 (cost 1 pp), an even trade. So, simply buy Stamina up to the max level you want for either Toughness or Fortitude, than add additional points into either Protection (whether as a power, device, or equipment), or the Fortitude defense.

Agility: One rank in Agility buys you Dodge 1 (cost 1 pp), Acrobatics 1 (cost 0.5 pp), Stealth 1 (cost 0.5 pp), and Initiative 1 (cost 0.25 pp). This is another one of those Abilities that is really good if you want to be good at all these things. **Note** You still need to buy at least 1 skill rank in Acrobatics in order to be able to use the skill (or purchase the Jack of All Trades advantage).

Dexterity: One rank in Dexterity buys Ranged Combat 1 (cost 1 pp), Sleight of Hand 1 (cost 0.5 pp, but requires you to be trained), and Vehicles 1 (cost 0.5 pp, but requires you to be trained). Unless you are looking to be good in all three things, it will be cheaper to just buy what you want individually rather than buying ranks in Dexterity. Additionally, if you are only focusing on one form of Ranged Combat, it is more cost efficient to buy skill ranks in Ranged Combat [Your Form]. If you want to be equally good at two or more forms of Ranged Combat, just buy ranks in the advantage.

Fighting: Fighting works the same as Stamina. One rank in Fighting gives you Close Combat 1 (costs 1 pp) and Parry 1 (costs 1 pp). If you are only focusing on one form of Close Combat, then it is more efficient to purchase skill ranks in Close Combat [Your Form] and ranks in the Parry defense. Once you want to do more than one form of close combat, you might as well buy ranks in Fighting until you hit your desired limit for either Parry defense or Close Combat attack, and then purchase additional ranks in the other area.

Intellect: Intellect is like Presence as it only purchases skills (Expertise, Investigation, Technology, and Treatment), each worth only 0.5 pp/rank. These skills also all require you to be trained in them in order to use them. Unless you are planning on having ranks in more than 3 of these skills, a more cost efficient way to spend your power points would be to just buy skill ranks rather than Intellect ranks. If you are looking to be the super smarty pants who knows everything about everything then, yes, purchasing Intellect is cost effective (along with the Jack of All Trades advantage)

Awareness: One rank of Awareness buys Will 1 (cost 1 pp), Insight 1 (cost 0.5 pp), and Perception (cost 0.5 pp). Equal trade if you are looking to be skilled in all these areas.

It is worth noting that occasionally your character may have to make an Ability check. Strength is one such ability, especially if you are using the maneuvers that are keyed off Strength (like Disarming, Grabbing, and Holding). This is also occasionally true for Agility and Awareness, but usually you are allowed to use a skill check in place of the Ability (like Acrobatics or Insight).

Haha... that took a bit of space... but buying ranks in Abilities is one of the big ways to either “save” power points (not often) or waste them (common). Don’t be deceived!


2) Pay attention to the Power Level. Especially with your defenses, and your attack/damage effects! You would be wise to keep them as maxed out as possible.

At Power Level 8, this means that your Attack/Damage effects combined should be at 16, otherwise you risk either not hitting or not damaging opponents at your equal power level. And, really, you probably want to keep the difference between the two at no more than 5.

For example, having an attack bonus of +14 with a damage effect rank 2 will likely hit whomever you are trying to hit, but your opponent will just soak the damage with his toughness defense (which means you just wasted your attack).

If you happen to have the Power Attack advantage, you have the flexibility to -5 from the attack and add +5 to the damage (giving you a +9 attack, +7 damage) which will mean you hit a little less frequently, but at least you’re likely to do damage. You could save yourself a power point, though, by not purchasing Power Attack and creating your power to be +10 attack, damage rank 6.

Fortitude and Will defenses are really your call... if you want him to be able to deal with more attacks on the body, make Fortitude higher. If you think your guy can deal with assaults on his mind better, give him a better Will defense. Keeping their combined total at 16, though, is a good idea. Affliction and Weaken powers apply conditions that can knock your character out of the fight pretty quickly and they usually target Fortitude or Will. Seriously... 3 degrees of failure and your guy becomes incapacitated, and a lot of those Afflictions can easily have the Continuous extra, meaning if your opponent keeps hitting you three rounds and you fail each round, you’re incapacitated.

Dodge-Parry/Toughness is an interesting mix. From a min-max perspective, having a higher toughness and lower dodge-parry is more efficient and more likely to help out in combat. Here’s why:

On a per power point comparison, you need to spend 2 pp to gain a rank in both Dodge and Parry, but only 1 pp to gain a rank in Toughness. There’s also a number of conditions that can either cut your dodge-parry defenses in half (surprised) or drop them to 0 (defenseless). Finally, the ability to purchase Impervious Toughness allows the character to auto save against damage effects that are ranked at half the level of the Impervious rank.

Regardless of whether you focus on the Dodge-Parry side or the Toughness side, keeping their combined total at 16 is a good idea

Two special notes here:
- At PL 8, Impervious Toughness is only really good if you have at least 8 ranks in it, allowing you to auto save against damage effect ranked 4 or less (basically making you immune to most equipment level damage)... anything less than rank 8 and you’ll probably find that it doesn’t help you that much and you would have been better off just spending the power points on additional ranks of straight Toughness/Protection (without Impervious) or spending them somewhere else.

- The Defensive Roll advantage is a trap! Don't buy it! You spend 1 pp to gain 1 rank in Toughness, but it’s an active defense, meaning it is subject to being halved or reduced to 0 like Parry and Dodge. Better to spend the point on the Protection power and just say your character has toughened his body through martial training.


3) You already have a wide range of “lesser” advantages available to you for free. All of our characters can use lesser forms of Accurate Attack (-2 damage, +2 attack), All-Out Attack (-2 dodge and parry, +2 attack), Defensive Attack (-2 attack, +2 dodge and parry), and Power Attack (-2 attack, +2 damage). This should make you think twice about whether or not you really need to purchase any of those advantages. (Mr Nobody’s Power Attack advantage is a good example... I’m not sure there will ever be a time where you’ll want to subtract more than 2 from his attack, much less 5, in order to add that bonus to his already powerful damage effect. I know the Archetype in the book has the advantage listed... I’m just not sure why. The Accurate Attack advantage would be of better use, allowing Mr Nobody to tone down the damage sometimes in order to make a precise strike.)


4) Advantages tied to Skill Checks: If you are looking to have an advantage that is tied to making skill check, you really want a bunch of ranks in those skills. At Power Level 8, in order to be effective, you’ll want at least 8 ranks in the skill, probably more, in order to have some hope for reliable success. I’m thinking of the advantages Daze, Redirect, Startle, and Taunt specifically, as these are advantages meant for combat. They can all be resisted by an opposed skill check or a Will check by your opponent (the better of the two). If you assume most opponents have at least a Will defense of 8, you need at least a +8 in your skill to match him, meaning you’re likely spending your standard action on a 50/50 chance of success.

Furthermore, it’s debateable whether or not spending your action to gain whatever effect the advantage will give you is worth it... or if it would have been better to just attack the opponent (or use the Aid action to help one of your allies to give them a +2 bonus to their attack)



Wow, so that was longer than I thought it would be. Not sure if this will be helpful for our present game, but maybe for future games.

Peace,
Ayrn


Posted on 2014-08-28 at 07:54:19.
Edited on 2014-08-28 at 08:01:42 by Ayrn

Alacrity
The Tired
RDI Staff
Karma: 291/33
6348 Posts


Whoa

I have to say Ayrn that you have managed to remind me why I normally avoiding being a player instead of a GM. This level of min/max how to make your character has no appeal to me whatsoever.

I do not know the M&M system well and in an online game it is not important to know the rules thoroughly as the GM rolls everything. So if Oskar wants to kill me, I have no control.

I joined this game because I like superheroes. I had a concept for a tough guy who was super strong, near invulnerable and who just wanted to be accepted and noticed for once in his life. I am really looking forward to playing him and I don't care if he is the absolute best that he can be. In fact, that is part of his charm, he is not. I am here for the roleplay, not the rules.

I think it was Gary Gygax who said the greatest danger to D&D was that the GMs would realize they don't need the rules.





Posted on 2014-08-28 at 12:58:33.

Ayrn
RDI Fixture
Karma: 122/12
2025 Posts


Haha!

Well, for the record, and let me be very clear - I really am looking forward to roleplaying with all of you! (especially you, Roger!)

And, for the record, I really think all the character concepts on the table are awesome! Seriously, super cool. All the backstories were very enjoyable to read. (which is not surprising because you guys are a bunch of great writers).

The above, for sure, is min-maxing... though, I'd rather reframe it as "enabling your character to do within the rules what you actually see him or her doing in your mind."

Truthfully, when I DM, it is pretty much "free-form" or ultra-rules light... I'm looking to tell a cooperative story with my kids. I giving them each a D6 dice so they feel some tension, and pretend to consult a table or two before I add some more to our story and we continue on.


Posted on 2014-08-28 at 14:53:33.

Alacrity
The Tired
RDI Staff
Karma: 291/33
6348 Posts


hurm

I have to agree with you on the Accurate attack vs the Power attack. I left it on as it was part of the archetype but accurate does make more sense. If Oskar will let me change it, great but otherwise it is fine as is.



Posted on 2014-08-28 at 16:33:24.

Hammer
Extreme Exclaimator!
Karma: 93/24
4361 Posts


Ayrn

I am not offended and have only skimmed over what has been written while on my Phone and have been away from my laptop!

Our GM did not Post the Back Story for Father Brian O'Brien and therefore it is hidden from the rest of the Players, not to mention that I have not Included Everything in regards to Father Brian O'Brien to our GM, because I am leaving it for development as I write posts in the upcoming and hopefully soon to be launched Adventure!

These Factor Heavily in how I created the Sidekick Character and did receive the Okay from our GM that both Zilver Wreker and Father Brian O'Brien were given his seal of approval, even though I totally changed the concept of Father Brian O'Brien and threw Skari-dono a curve with the changes I made to Father Brian O'Brien.

So Currently I am trying to figure out how to add the 3 Power Points to my Sidekick, also considering Equipment upgrades to the Vehicle for Father Brian O'Brien.

As noted in the Character Sheet, the Sword has every attribute that the Player Handbook requires for wielding a Sword, so I will give it a couple of days for the rest of you to decide what you may or may not do with combining Power Points, as I have some things requiring my attention in Real Life today and probably Friday, with my Saturday being spent mostly away from my laptop to spend time watching College Football with a neighbor!

I do appreciate your Passion for this Game and MM Insights that you have so graciously posted already Ayrn, so I am sure the group as a group and individuals will reach a decision(s) for the Good of the Game!

I also echo what Roger stated about being attracted to this adventure because of Superheroes and the Flaws will be part of the Adventure!

Even if it costs Father Brian O'Brien his 'game' life!


Posted on 2014-08-28 at 20:15:07.

Ayrn
RDI Fixture
Karma: 122/12
2025 Posts


Fair enough...

I appreciate what you said, Hammer. I think you're right... you know best the vision you have in your mind for Zilver and Father O'Brian. It's probably best to leave your sidekick as yours rather than shared.

So, with that in mind, I guess we just spend the extra points on our own characters individually.

Alacrity, probably the easiest way to spend your 2 points would be to boost Mr Nobody's Parry defense score to 6. It bring the score up to the power level max and costs only 2 points.


Skari-dono, I'll get back to you on how I hope to spend mine.

Thanks!


Posted on 2014-08-29 at 09:15:10.

Hammer
Extreme Exclaimator!
Karma: 93/24
4361 Posts


Considering

Using 2 of my Power Points on Zilver Wreker and one PP on Father Brian O'Brien so I will submit my decision here and to Skari-dono by late this evening!



Posted on 2014-08-29 at 16:43:04.

Hammer
Extreme Exclaimator!
Karma: 93/24
4361 Posts


How Hammer Spent His 3 Additional Power Points

Hey Gang

I am adding 2 Power Points to the Leap Power of Zilver Wreker to increase his Leap Rank by 2 from Rank 5 to Rank 7 to be able to Leap 900 feet.

I Originally Envisioned him being able to Leap the length of 3 American Football Fields so with these 2 additional Power Points he is now able to do so!

I will add the Final Extra Power Point to increase Father Brian O'Brien's Treatment Skill Rank of 2 to Treatment Rank 4 which seems to make the most sense to me, at least in the light of my self-imposed deadline for adding the Extra Power Points!


Posted on 2014-08-30 at 00:23:45.

Ayrn
RDI Fixture
Karma: 122/12
2025 Posts


Hammer

The point you spent on Father O'Brian (which, I'm assuming you spend on gaining 1 more rank of Sidekick) can actually buy 10 extra ranks in Treatment (not just 2).

Spend 1 pp on Sidekick, give Sidekick 5 power points to spend.

Sidekick spends 5 power points on skills, gains +10 skill ranks.



Posted on 2014-08-30 at 01:26:01.

Hammer
Extreme Exclaimator!
Karma: 93/24
4361 Posts


Was Not Thinking Ayrn

So as long as I am allowed to increase Father Brian O'Brien from Rank 6 Sidekick to Rank 7 Sidekick, then I will gladly utilize the 5 extra Power Points for my Sidekick.

Gonna have to take some Extra Time to figure out what I am going to do for Upgrading my Sidekick now!

Thanks Again Ayrn




Posted on 2014-08-30 at 01:38:53.

Hammer
Extreme Exclaimator!
Karma: 93/24
4361 Posts


Adjusting Father Brian O'Brien

Okay Gang

Spending my 3rd Power Point to upgrade Father Brian O'Brien from Rank 6 to Rank 7 Sidekick

[This Provides another 5 Power Points for my Sidekick]

5 Power Points for Sidekick Upgrade to be spent as follows:

Inventor Advantage 1 Power Point

Skills Vehicle Skill Upgrade from Rank 2 to Rank 4 1 Power Point

Treatment Skill Upgrade from Rank 2 to Rank 4 1 Power Point

Technology Skill Rank 4 2 Power Points

Thanks Again to Ayrn for his help!




Posted on 2014-08-30 at 04:04:05.

Hammer
Extreme Exclaimator!
Karma: 93/24
4361 Posts


Hey Ayrn

I have sent your 'Sidekick Makeover' to Skari-dono for his approval, so we will see what happens ?????

Thanks Again for All Your Help!


Posted on 2014-08-30 at 15:37:26.

   


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